- Forum Actions
- Quick Links
Thread Tools
Display
The Difference Between Manual and CNC Lathes. Posted June 4, 2014 by CNC Masters & filed under CNC Lathe. The lathe is a truly time-honored tool, used for hundreds of years to produce parts for machines, furniture and many other items. Each precise, durable metal lathe from Baileigh will hold exacting tolerances for years. Whether you’re looking for a small metal lathe or a large industrial lathe, we have a model that’s right for you.
- Cast Iron
- Join Date
- Dec 2003
- Location
- United States of America
- Posts
- 271
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 0
- Likes (Received)
- 4
What can anyone tell me about combination manual CNC lathes? I know zero about CNC but I understand that you can use the lathe as a manual lathe to do a single or small run of parts or you can use it as a CNC. I also read that you can machine a part and save the sequence for furture machining of the same parts.
Any have any expeireince with these? Good or bad? Advantages or disadvantages?
Please enlighten me... [img]smile.gif[/img] - Mark HockettAluminum
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
- Location
- Clinton, Washington
- Posts
- 168
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 0
- Likes (Received)
- 2
BobB,
I have a Haas TL-1. The lathe works very well for what I do which is prototyping and small runs. The lathe will work as a manual or CNC lathe. The lathe does not work well for a manual lathe because the manual controls are very heavy because of the ball screws. The conversatoinal controls are so easy to use that I dont know why anyone would want to use it as a manual lathe with the exception of the tailstock.
I am no expert with this lathe but I was making parts within a couple of days of getting it and I had never run a CNC lathe before.
The lathe will record conversational programs.
Mark - Senior Member
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Location
- Conroe, Texas
- Posts
- 663
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 0
- Likes (Received)
- 6
There were a lot of these combination lathes way back in early NC (pre CNC) days because people just didn't trust NC or know if they would be able to master it. Keeping the manual operating features just made the lathe un-necessarily complicated, and more expensive with un-need parts Go for full blown CNC. It is not rocket science.
- Diamond
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
- Posts
- 7,975
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1775
- Likes (Received)
- 2329
Bob: I own and run a Romi M17 CNC engine lathe. There are some good reasons to consider one of these combination machines: Depending on your work thy could fill the void between a manual lathe and a full CNC lathe.
For me i do a ton of proto type work, with small runs of parts...rarely more than 3-10 pieces.
I chose the Romi over some others because it offered a cam lock spindle so the lathe tooling that i already owned would interchange.
The setup on most of these programmable engine lathes is the same as with a normal engine lathe , that is the tool holder is out toward the operator and the tooling is the same as what a normal engine lathe uses. Many CNC lathes with full turrets run the tool to the other side of the part and thus require opposite hand tool holders and thay are more difficult to see what is going on with the cut. (not an issue for a full CNC machine, but a help if you are using the hand wheels to run the lathe).
Most of the programmable engine lathes with the exception of the Haas TL line use rotary encoders to move the tool in manual mode. They will have no 'Feel' at all as the move is driven electronicaly.
The programmable engine lathes also can be fitted with conventional tool block and holders. (less expensieve). Now this will have a speed advantage, but you will have 'unlimited ' tools for any job you wish to run, and will not requier 'setting' up a tool in the turret for that one time job that uses a special tool.
I opted for the MultiFix tooling with my machine and it has woirked out pretty well. DORIAN also mskes small turrets that will work with these lathes.
As stated ealier most of the manual/CNC lathes have some type of quick conversational programming feature and on my machine using the Fanuc 21i-T the 'Manual Guide' works pretty well. Not as flexible as going with the standard G-Code (my control does that too) but very quick to knock out a part quickly.
There are some issues with the Romi that i don't like. For manual operation and use of the tail stock for drilling is pretty topugh. The pannels that slide to cover the work get in the way, so i do all my drilling with the tool block.
Nice thing about the Romi is that everything except spindle positioning is standard...no extras to buy unlike other machines.
I find i use the CNC features more as i get morre used to the machine and do less by hand, but for a single turning or facing operation the handles work great, and it is pretty cool to have the constant surface speed even when you are running under manual control.
Cheers Ross - SIMTitanium
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Location
- Staten Island NewYork USA
- Posts
- 3,677
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1072
- Likes (Received)
- 1754
I don't have a combi, just CNC's.
I have looked at the Manual combi and the only upside I found was you could get a larger lathe for your buck with a tailstock included. Pops liked the idea, he could use as a manual lathe and ease into CNC.
Down side, what maks CNC great is it can run several operations at whatever speed it needs and chips and coolant are contained.
-Manual CNC machines have the speeds limited as you will create a huge mess on many jobs, therefore you need to run slower. Many don't even have the higher rpm's.
-Tools are not automatically changed, requiring more operator interface, a main reason for going CNC.
-As a manual machine your paying too much for a manual, and as a CNC you don't get enough.
As far as ease and getting comfy with a 1/2 way machine I'd spend the time learning CNC. Learning an 'easy' way then relearning the 'right' way sems like a waste of time.
Then again you may have a use where a machine like this is perfect. However, if you are purchasing as a stepping stone to a CNC, just go CNC from the start. - Cast Iron
- Join Date
- Dec 2003
- Location
- United States of America
- Posts
- 271
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 0
- Likes (Received)
- 4
I've looked at combination machines for its ability to run a single part using the lathe, and the ability to run many parts with the CNC program.
Knowing nothing about CNC but using manual machines for the last 30 years, I wondered if there was a way to just have to buy one lathe instead of two.I am beggining to understand the advantages and disadvantages of each and am still wondering which way to go.
How difficult would it be to learn CNC ? In my particular case, I would need to make several hundred baffles,threaded endcaps and various machine sequences on tubing.Nothing big, but at least a 13 x40 or something of that capability.
Can someone explain 'Conversational logic ' to me ? How difficult is it to learn ?
Thanks all for the replys. - Diamond
- Join Date
- Jul 2004
- Location
- Asheville NC USA
- Posts
- 8,866
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 3585
- Likes (Received)
- 3017
I'd agree with Carl (SIM) on this. You can put a turning center in manual mode and use the display as a DRO while you make the moves with the MPG, if you like to do things manually. But, you can also shut the door, hit the go button, and have a totally contained operation that would sling a shower of chips and coolant 30 feet in every direction on a non-enclosed machine. Sometimes we need to be forced into doing things that are to our own benefit. Learning to program a lathe isn't difficult at all, particularly if you already know how to run an engine lathe and therefore have a good understanding of what goes on in turning. Once you do begin to learn, you'll soon find yourself doing even single parts on a turning center instead of doing them manually.
- HuFlungDungDiamond
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Country
- CANADA
- State/Province
- Saskatchewan
- Posts
- 10,180
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1379
- Likes (Received)
- 3649
I have never had an actual 'conversational' control, and frankly, I don't see the need. In fact, when trying to read some conversational code, it seems like a step back from reading plain gcode. The repetitive nature of a gcode 'text file' makes it quite easy to understand the 'mysterious codes', without the added clutter of 'helpful words' which simply obscures what you are really trying to see. But that is just my opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img]
A simple reference card will suffice to learn what the gcodes stand for.
If/when you begin using cadcam software, the conversion of standard 'ISO gcode' back to conversational can be a headache, so one feature to look for if you get a conversational control, is the ability for it to 'understand' plain gcode, without converting it to conversational first.
We've all witnessed a few battles on this forum between the 'manuals versus the cncs', and who is 'better' I suspect that it is a bit of an eyeopener for the guy who gets his first cnc lathe with manual control option, to discover that there is literally no point in standing there waiting to adjust position manually. Just plan it all out at the start, and push cycle start: it makes more sense, and doesn't bugger up the tools or the part with dwell marks and squealing.
Having said that, you are not likely to make a 'dumb move' manually, such as could happen under cnc if an errant movement is programmed in. This is why we either:
test run the program in air cutting mode,
or
use a cadcam program to simulate the gcode and catch errant movements from improper code.
Edit: just to temper my remarks at bit, my opinion is that if you learn to understand standard gcode programing, the knowledge you acquire as you gain programing experience, will be more portable, and make it easier to buy from a wider range of cncs. - Diamond
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Location
- Pacific NW
- Posts
- 5,105
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 8
- Likes (Received)
- 827
'Can someone explain 'Conversational logic ' to me ? How difficult is it to learn ?'
In conversational mode, most machines will prompt you for various parameters of the cutting operation. Like final diameter, amount of roughing passes, amount of a finishing pass, feed rates, etc, etc.
How difficult is it too learn? I'm tempted to say if you were able to figure out how to post to a forum like this, then it'll be a piece of cake. The idea with conversational is to make it easy to learn and use.
If the machine also has graphical display (most do), then it's even easier 'cause you can see before the actual cutting takes place what's going to happen, before it becomes a problem. - SIMTitanium
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Location
- Staten Island NewYork USA
- Posts
- 3,677
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1072
- Likes (Received)
- 1754
Conversational Programming is sort of talking with the machine.
It asks you questions and you give it answers. At the end it writes the G-code behind the scenes so you don't have to learn it to make parts.
The machine will want to know your stock size, materail type and grade, finished part profile and tooling to name a few.
Then
It may ask the starting coordinates, what tool to use so you tell it.
Some newwer ones instead of asking you what to use, the machine may suggest tooling and speeds.
That is the general idea of conversational programming, the machine prompts you for information, you give it, when your done the machine will spit out a program in G-Code which you don't have to see. Up side to this is you can figure out how to get a part done with little knowledge.
Down side, programming takes longer, harder to tweak, you never really learn the G-Code so what you learn is pretty specific to that one Machine. I found conversational to be sort of a crutch, you rely on it too much and don't learn the basics. Sometimes you have to go thru a dozen steps to do a simple three line G-code program. - Diamond
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
- Location
- Pacific NW
- Posts
- 5,105
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 8
- Likes (Received)
- 827
SIM wrote: 'the machine will spit out a program in G-Code '
That's not the case with all machines. Many never actually generate the G-Code program, they internally generate the cutter path which you never see the code for and can't modify.
From a production standpoint, conversational tool paths will sometimes take a few seconds (lots of seconds?) more than an equivalent cutting operation with Gcode. Sometimes they generate a few extraneous moves, like returning the tool back to the conversational event's starting point.
We do lots of bar fed lathe parts with short cycle times. Usually I'll set the program up and use conversational events where I can. Once the tooling and parts are proven out, many times cycle time can be improved with a non-conversational Gcode program. - SIMTitanium
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Location
- Staten Island NewYork USA
- Posts
- 3,677
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1072
- Likes (Received)
- 1754
How about this anology?
Conversational programing is sort of like an automatic tranny. Tell it you want to go forward and it does the rest.
It will upshift when it feels it is needed, downshift when it thinks its needed.
With stick, yes you have the inconveniance of learning plus having to manually shift, but you shift when you want and can tweak your performance. - Cast Iron
- Join Date
- Dec 2003
- Location
- United States of America
- Posts
- 271
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 0
- Likes (Received)
- 4
WOW...thanks for the exellent replys...
Now...another question..
How long does it take to learn ? - SIMTitanium
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Location
- Staten Island NewYork USA
- Posts
- 3,677
- Post Thanks / Like
- Likes (Given)
- 1072
- Likes (Received)
- 1754
Depends.
How long does it take to learn to be a machinist?
Assuming you know basic machining and understand computers are quite literal in what they need to know you should have no problem getting simple parts in a day or so.
I would advice however, someone familiar with the Machine and Control show you around and do a simple program with you.
Very simple things can really screw you up in the beginning, things such as entering work coordinates and tool touchoffs. Once you see it done and understand what is happening and where to put the infomation it is usually very easy, but that first time trying to figure out what to do from a manual can be...well horrible.
Anyway, a simple program should not take to long and you just build from there. In the beginning you just check and double check what you are doing.
By my secound week, I was making money with my first CNC machine. Other then an hour with a guy familiar with the machine I learned the rest myself thru trial and error, after hours.
Getting started is the hardest part. You also have one big advantage, you can ask a question here and i can pretty much guarantee you will get several great answers, this forum can be invaluable!
Good Luck
- Site Areas
- Forums
- Manufacturing Today
- Specific Machine Forums
- Open Discussion
- Commerce
- Machinery Manual, Brochure and Photo Archives
- Forum features
«Previous Thread | Next Thread»
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts
Cnc Lathe For Sale Craigslist
- BB code is On
- Smilies are On
- [IMG] code is On
- [VIDEO] code is On
- HTML code is Off